A round-table of industry experts, hosted by Hammond Phillips, looked at what could be done to improve security in shopping centres. To begin with, each guest was asked to name his biggest security bugbear.

Roger Southam began. "The BRC is right to highlight stock loss. But to get everyone's tagging systems compatible with each other seems to be a real battle. Everything the government does just seems to make our lives more difficult," he said.

Martin Taylor chipped in: "My problem is the level of crime that's not reported. If you don't measure it you can't budget for it."

Chris Shaw pointed out: "I think when it comes to stock going out the back door of a shop, it's possible for a centre manager to spot things that the retailer can't. But nowadays you can't threaten people with prosecution if the police aren't going to come. And if they do come they aren't going to prosecute."

So what are the positives? Shaw was the first to come up with some examples. "In Sutton we forged a close relationship between the Town Centre Partnership and the police. Virtually every known criminal is recognised instantly, and as soon as they enter a unit they're approached and asked politely to leave. We've been challenged twice on this under human rights legislation and we've won. So there are practical ways of doing something," he said.

Another successful venture highlighted by Shaw is crime mapping, which has been used with some success at the London Trocadero. The location of every incident is recorded on a plan of the centre, which is then forwarded to the police. "It makes us better at managing resources," said Shaw. "We can sit down with the police and identify the hotspots. We also record crime on a time basis so we can arrange extra manning at peak times for crime."

"That's one of the things a shopping centre does by its very nature," said Taylor. "Keeping the best and driving the less good out."

genuine concern

But Southam wondered whether retailers would buy into such intelligence-based systems. "Retailers will moan about security. But will they do anything about it when there's a cost involved?" he asked.

"The system in Sutton was self-financing," replied Shaw. "One shop alone saved thousands of pounds."

And Ian Lester added: "I think retailers are genuinely concerned. If you can demonstrate that something works they'll buy into it." He pointed out that security already accounts for 30 to 35 per cent of a typical shopping centre's budget, taking in staff costs and CCTV. And it can go as high as 50 per cent.

So what about lower-level security issues like the infamous hoodies? "At the Trocadero we identify groups and tell them to break up into smaller numbers," said Shaw. "And we simply don't allow unaccompanied under 18-year-olds at weekends."

"They get smart quickly enough if you make life difficult for them," said Southam.

"That's right," agreed Shaw. "We just go on at them until they get bored."

"It's a bit like graffiti," said Taylor. "You have to act quickly."

"Absolutely," said Shaw. "We keep a bucket of whitewash and remove the graffiti the moment we see it.

"You need to be up at 8am, though, so by the time these people are out of bed it's gone. Do that for three months and they give up."

But there are limits to security, as Lester pointed out. "At the Trocadero we had four big guards on the doors for a while. That kept vandals away but it also kept the shoppers away."

"You have to be able to handle people," said Taylor. "Just being SIA qualified isn't the end of the job."

And the SIA is clearly an issue. "It's OK for the big centres, but the smaller centres can't afford the levels of manning. So you have to rely on camers, and the SIA says you can't review images unless you're SIA qualified," pointed out Southam.

"That's where working together in a town is important," said Shaw. "In Sutton the big centre helps the smaller one on this."

"The way centres have been traded doesn't help either," said Southam. "You don't get long-term investment. It's all about squeezing a centre for the short term."

"That means you have to rely on a piecemeal approach, rather than a long-term strategic one," agreed Shaw. "And in my experience that applies equally to the police, where we're seeing short-term budgets for Safer Neighbourhoods initiatives that can suddenly be cut. In one area I've seen a 30 per cent cut."

"In the end I think it's about managing a centre for the majority rather than the minority," said Southam. "You should welcome the right people as much as you drive out the wrong, for example by the way you dress your security staff."

"I agree, more casual dress works better," said Shaw.

the terrorist threat

However, every centre manager's biggest nightmare is terrorism. As Lester said: "It'll only take a major terrorist incident and security'll go right up the agenda. But will we ever have airport-style security?"

"I managed the London Pavilion at the height of the IRA campaign and we didn't have anything like that," said Southam.

"This is a very different breed of terrorist, but I don't think we'll ever have airport-style scanners," said Taylor.

"It does happen in some places." interjected Lester.

"We've seen with the latest Christmas trading figures that the only way Next is growing its business is on the internet," pointed out Southam. "We have to make sure that people find shopping a pleasant experience. Tesco has lots of security, but it's not intrusive."

"To my mind, more hidden security is the way forward," said Shaw. "That means more hidden cameras and more co-ordination with the boroughs and with the police. All of which has a cost."

"I'm not sure," said Southam. "The softer side is what's important - making it not worthwhile for troublemakers to come in."

"More and more the state is simply stepping back," said Taylor. "Look at the fire regulations for instance. Managers are now much more exposed to risk than they used to be."

"And it's another added cost," said Lester. "Now you don't have to achieve the minimum standards of the old fire certificate. In general I find health & safety is becoming more and more of a problem. For example, at one property in Sunderland we installed eye bolts for the window cleaners to hook on to. I said to the insurers 'It's all very well having them. How do you make sure they use them?' And they seriously expected us to go up there every week to monitor them while they were working."

The claims culture is another hot issue for managers. "In one centre we have a spate of claims every October," said Shaw. "People there see it as their Christmas money. Now we have to put fixed cameras on every danger spot, just to monitor claims."

"It's an even bigger problem in open-air centres," said Southam. "At Worsley Green in Birmingham I got a call one day to say one of the shopfronts was on fire. Local youths had stolen a car, pushed it up against a shopfront and set it on fire. The solution was to put up bollards but we had to leave a gap big enough for a fire engine, which defeated the object."

"Its true. There's going to be a growing problem of what is effectively public realm within a private estate," said Taylor.

"In the end, any security has a cost. No retailer is happy about spending money but they will pay if you can justify it," concluded Shaw.

Dramatis personae

Ian Lester - Director, Hammond Phillips

Chris Shaw - Director, Criterion Capital

Martin Taylor - Consultant to Calthorpe Estates and chair of the BCSC Security and Safer Shopping Committee

Roger Southam - Chairman and chief executive, Chainbow

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