The Bridges shopping centre in Sunderland is one of Land Securities' flagships. It doubled in size in September 2000 to 500,000 sq ft and its 107 stores are anchored by a Debenhams department store and four MSUs let to H&M, Gap, Next and TK Maxx. In a typical week it attracts 450,000 visitors.

By contrast the Seaham Hall hotel is a niche operation with just 19 bedrooms, two restaurants and a world-class spa. It was the brainchild of Tom Maxfield, who made his fortune through the Sage accounting software package, and his wife Jocelyn. They spotted the potential of the run-down former country house that in its glory days at the beginning of the 19th century had played host to Lord Byron's wedding.

So did the two managers have any preconceived ideas about each others' industries? "I expected to see world-class customer service," says Steele. "It's a very different approach. Seaham Hall is small enough for the team to talk to every single customer and find out what their individual needs are, whereas we have to use mass marketing and a more general approach."

"I set out to learn from Land Securities," says Bell. "Innkeeping is a time-old tradition but we've been very slow in learning new ideas. Retail, on the other hand has been very savvy: just look at Tesco's transformation from grotty little supermarkets."

first impressions

And what were their first impressions of each others' workplace? "The biggest difference is one of scale," says Bell. "We can offer a bespoke experience." But Steele is quick to point out that it's not impossible to inject the personal touch into customer service even on the scale of The Bridges. "Our customer service staff do get to know the customers. After all, they're their neighbours."

In terms of FM I've realised there's a lot we can learn from The Bridges," says Bell. "We talked a lot about recycling and energy conservation."

"I think there's a lot of synergy in our management roles," says Steele. "We both use experts - although we may call them different names - in FM, in operations, in marketing. As general managers our role is to sit above them and co-ordinate what they do."

And he singles out Seaham Hall's approach to marketing as the biggest single point of difference. "We're approaching very different markets," he says. "At Seaham Hall it's very targeted, but in fact the catchment could be global with an emphasis on the UK. In fact at The Bridges we do use research to understand those in our catchment who choose not to shop with us, even if they have to travel further to shop somewhere else. We also use customer segmentation, targeting specifically high-spending groups like students."

"And we both have to address perception issues," Steele continues. "People in the north east still perceive The Bridges as it was 10 years ago, and Matt has the same problem: if it wasn't for the spa why would people want to go to Seaham?"

management styles

So how do the two characterise their own approach to management? "A lot of private owners use a hotel as a statement," Bell explains. "So when I came here I had to understand what Tom and Jocelyn wanted to achieve. Basically our vision is to be the market leader in pure indulgence, passionate about customers and colleagues and consistently delivering excellence. That has to come from the top down."

Steel sums up his approach: "We focus on gaining the best possible operational standards and giving the customers the best possible experience. That way we find we get more visitors and the average spend goes up, and that in turn drives the asset value."

"There are four distinct components to our business," points out Bell. "The spa, with both members and day visitors, the hotel, the restaurant and the conference and events side. But as I see it The Bridges has three customers: the shoppers, the tenants and the internal customers. It strikes me that shopping centre management is often about managing more than one customer, often with conflicting demands. That doesn't happen to us - our customers may come into conflict with us but rarely with each other."

And he adds: "The tenant relationship is the one that interests me. We're just about to put the hairdresser Hooker & Young into the hotel on a concession arrangement with their 'hair spa' concept, and I think we could do more."

What about managing their respective teams? "Across the whole of our industry staff turnover is a big issue," Bell says. "If you're not careful you train people with specific technical skills and then they walk out the door. You have to make sure that knowledge is dissipated and properly documented."

"We outsource much more," says Steele, but it's important that the contractors' people feel part of our team. In fact we reward them directly if they demonstrate exceptional service. For instance, two of our maintenance guys won our internal award last quarter for dealing with a very unpleasant drain problem. Our security team won both regional and national awards from the British Security Industry Association, and they weren't just limited to shopping centres. They won because we actually measure satisfaction levels among shoppers and occupiers, as well as mystery shopping the mall and the shops."

"We also use mystery shoppers, and we take industry awards seriously," says Bell. "We've won awards from both the AA and RAC. In the industry we have ways and means of knowing when the AA is coming and we make sure we're on top of our game. But then we work with them on the areas where we've fallen down,"

So does Steele think such an approach could work for the shopping centre industry? "Awards and rankings are there primarily to get customers in," he says. "Because of increasing mobility, customers do now have a choice of centres and leisure destinations as we move from a convenience shopping culture to comparison shopping."

Both managers concluded that the day had been a valuable learning experience, and the exercise is already bringing real business benefits - they are already swapping business contacts and plan to stay in touch in the future.

A marriage made in heaven

The job swap was facilitated by Howard Morgan, managing director of real estate performance consultancy Kingsley Lipsey Morgan. His take on the process is as follows:

"If you were seeking evidence that the property industry is moving from being a bricks and mortar business to being part of the hospitality industry, you need look no further than this exchange of ideas and experience. Matthew Bell and Phil Steele both bring fresh thinking and an openness to change which is refreshing and motivates everyone they meet.

"The lessons learned from this exchange reinforce the aims of the Real Service benchmarking group of 33 member organisations working together to share best practice and discover the link between better service and business performance. The Real Service Index measures how closely each member is following best practice in six building blocks and 25 key criteria.

"I was mentally clocking up the best practices that we saw on our visit to Seaham Hall. Matthew Bell demonstrated the visible leadership and clarity of purpose that is essential in any well-run business. His emphasis on personally greeting guests and identifying their personal needs and preferences is a clear reminder to avoid treating all retailers as an amorphous mass.

"Frontline staff are trained and empowered to sort problems out there and then and are continually kept informed about what is happening each day at the hotel. Matthew clearly believes that great processes and great people are the perfect recipe for successful service delivery. Matthew recognises that the shopping centre industry can offer real expertise in facilities management and valuable lessons in how to work with a wide group of stakeholders. All in all, it's a real marriage of minds and ideas."

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